Yeah, I’ve noticed these childlike traits in myself and others with ADHD. I have a hard time not feeling a lot of shame about them. The only upside to me it seems is that we don’t lose that sense of wonder about the world that children have like most other adults do.
I’ve heard other adults say that they had children because they wanted to recapture the childlike joy of things like Christmas, or because their lives had become routine and boring… I’m still excited by many of the same things that excited me as a kid
I feel like saying it’s “the only upside” diminishes it a bit, because it’s a HUGE one. Do you know the lengths that adults will go to to recapture that childlike joy (and how badly their attempts usually go?)
Absolutely horse, it's wonderful to be so excited by life and people will chase that high at almost any cost ... hmm, maybe that's why we catch so much shade for having so much enthusiasm without having to pay anything for it (so to speak). Thought for a future post, perhaps.
It’s funny cause I’ve always said I wanted kids so I can be a kid with my children because I feel like that’s the only way I am allowed to be who I am (which is a toddler)
(which is probably also the reason why I maybe shouldn’t have kids because then I also need to be the parent)
In my experience, that part of it truly is lovely! You can spot other fellow neurodivergent parents at the playground pretty easy, they’re the ones going up and down the slides with the kids and clearly having a ball. But yes, someone does need to remember to bring spare clothes/wipes/snacks (to be honest that covers most eventualities!)
Thx for talking about this article in the We Zouden Het Toch Zo Doen-podcast. Really interesting. My compassion for and understanding my ADHD friends is growing. 💛
Omg, thank you. This is beyond fantastic. Also, though, as an ADHD’r, I have a family member, who def has ADHD, maybe even AuDHD, and this person makes me want to poke my own eyeballs out, and I get so overstimulated I can’t stand it, and them I am horribly rude to them and then I am “savagely” rude and/or rejecting to them, and help what can I do about this… I’d really like to not be rude or mean to them… and yet, If I say, please stop talking they cry. I’ve even walked away saying I need some quiet time and they follow me!!! And then they keeeeepppp talkkkkkinggggg. Eeeeeek what what what do I do! Also you forgot socks. How toddlers and us hate socks, they are horrible. And tags. And scratchy clothes.
Ha, how indeed did I forget socks and scratchy wool? PSA, people: please do not knit for babies, it is a truly beautiful gesture but ultimately terrible and wasteful for all concerned.
It's tough, right? To try and be kind, because you yourself struggle with the same things, but also to reach the end of your tolerance. I have a few thoughts ... could you have a chat with this family member when things are good/stable/calm, and frame it up as what YOU need, not what is WRONG with them. i.e. "You have so much enthusiasm and energy, and I can really hear how much you need to talk sometimes! The thing is, I care about you, but I also get overstimulated and sometimes I reach the limit of how much I can listen. Which doesn't mean you aren't important, just that I can't "people" any longer. Do you think maybe we can work out a system where I let you know that I'm reaching my limit, and then you can wrap up?"
If you can get their buy-in for what the system will be, it's much more likely to go well.
For example, if I am raving on a bit too much and my (very tolerant) husband has had enough, he will say "blueberries". I can hear this more readily than "please stop talking", even though it means the same thing, and it's a really good system because I know he's not listening to me drone through gritted teeth. He can also do it at parties when I am talking someone's face off about psychoanalysis, bonus!
Yes, having a conversation with them when Im not about to lose my top is smart. I sort of only just realized why I got so irritated with this person (that I became overstimulated) recently. I blamed how annoying they were for years. Then i watched another family member become overstimulated by them, and it clicked.
Yes and that comes back to ADHD and small children again, because wow can small people be overstimulating even though they are just learning and taking in the world and being super excited about it! We all have limits to how much overstimulation we can manage (and probably your family member's dysfunction is an attempt to discharge their own overstimulation).
All I can say is that I haven't seen any posts demonizing ADHD specifically - also, most of your examples might apply to someone with the hyperactive type but maybe not to someone primarily inattentive. Context & nuance is important 👌🏻
I am definitely often guilty of lacking nuance (though I hold the concept of nuance as very valuable, in theory). The vibe I notice is less demonising, more that much ADHD writing seems to boil down to "here's how to be more neurotypical" (like an ABA sort of approach) while much ASD writing is about how to unmask and accept difference. Thanks for your thoughts!
I mean, I can relate (INFP here) and I think that’s totally fair, only that having a small person of my own has made me more at peace with the idea (and less able to be in denial about it)!
I’m just autistic, not AuDHD (as per both my neuropsych evaluation and the fact that a brief Ritalin prescription helped my narcolepsy but did nothing for my executive functioning) but honestly, same. I actually conceptualize my executive dysfunction as a toddler in a business suit doing a really bad job at being the CEO of my brain. (Chief Executive dysfunction Officer — get it?) The coping-strategies part of my brain is basically Alfred from Batman trying to wrangle the toddler into cooperation while wearing a matching business suit. Makes it a little bit funnier when I’m standing at the pantry going WHY are these all INGREDIENTS and not FOOD
I love the idea of an inner Alfred having to manage the chaos, complete with dignified ever-weary British accent ("could Sir perhaps be persuaded to consider the long-term consequences of 'giving in to the fuck-its' at this time?". And yes that's exactly the deal with the pantry, right? It's not "full" when the only thing in there is components...
It’s all very “Sir, leading medical authorities all agree that ‘a brick of uncooked ramen noodles with the flavor packet sprinkled on top’ is not an acceptable dinner. At least cook the damn thing first.” “But CRONCH >:(“ “Tomorrow we can go shopping and get ingredients for a ramen noodle salad. It’ll be crunchy and nutritious. Is this an acceptable compromise, Sir?” on repeat forever. I don’t think metaphorical Alfred gets paid enough. (I have eaten uncooked ramen more than once. It is not very good. ‘Ramen noodle salad’ is usually coleslaw veg mix with some green onions, sunflower seeds, and sliced almonds plus crushed uncooked ramen as basically weird croutons, dressed in a vinaigrette that has the ramen seasoning packets in it. It sounds weird but it tastes good and also is very cheap.)
I work at a preschool and I get along with the kids pretty well partially because they’re relatable so this really put into words each of the reasons why. Other kid-like traits that I think are adhd coded is “not quite finishing a task because it had more than two steps and I forgot” like when I throw away some trash and realize the trash is full so I toss the bag in the bin but forget to throw away what I was originally tossing away. Or the “I was in the middle of doing something but I started staring into the distance and needed to be reminded to do my work”. Or the “NO I DONT WANNA CLEAN UP”
Ha, absolutely! I don't think I have ever once managed to complete the full-trash-bin-sequence in a single go (I reliably get stuck at the bit where I forget to put in a new bag, and then whatever I throw in the bin next ends up in the gross bagless bottom of the bin).
Best of luck Berliana, and thanks so much for sharing that. I went for my own assessment from a similar place of uncertainty ... I think at a certain point it's worth it just to know for sure.
Hahaha this made me laugh and I agree I am an absolute child and it makes life hard because children don't have to work and pay bills, but I do???? Completely unfair (and unrealistic.)
Ha, right? If anything it makes it easier to understand why certain parts of adult worklife are such a challenge ... you wouldn't expect a kid to be able to manage it but we can't always easily access higher adult functioning.
I totally agree with you on society’s dislike of small children, and I do feel as though my ADHD traits make me feel - and seem - childlike (or childish, depending on who’s judging).
However, growing up AuDHD, I’ve always felt that autism was more infantilized. I grew up with the “ADHD makes you a great entrepreneur or entertainer!” narrative, but Temple Grandin and Bill Gates were the only autistic people with jobs. Eventually they figured out it was an asset in tech, so that became the One Autistic Job Option.
I also find the autism articles more infantalizing in a way - it’s all about finding your people who wear cat ears and bright colours and being proud to fiddle with tangles and cuddle squishmallows in public.. whereas the ADHD stuff is more “stop fucking up your life so you can succeed in your career”
Love that you picked up the difference between childlike and childish! Also thank you for sharing that re autism spaces, I'm only noticing what I am recommended here on Substack but I can completely appreciate what you're saying. It's so tricky to hold tension and nuance between self-acceptance and moving towards improvement.
I feel a bit the same in the ADHD-is-a-superpower spaces. Like, maybe? I like that ADHD helps me have creative non-censored thoughts, but is there also space to acknowledge the grief of years and years of fuckery, the reality that I will never be what I might have been because of my brain?
It’s fascinating to me (an adult who had zero inkling I might have ADHD tendencies until well into my thirties) to go, more or less, from how ADD was treated in school (“has trouble sitting still and paying attention”) to how we now talk about it as adults.
So glad I stumbled upon this piece—thank you, randomness of Notes!—and I appreciate your writing about these perceptions.
Thanks so much Zach, that's very kind. I'm so glad you have found something useful in my writing. It's wild isn't it, the huge shift in perception from "trouble sitting still" disorder through to this way of experiencing and being and thinking that captures all us chaotic internalisers.
I had zero inkling myself for many years despite going through therapist training!
Even as an AuDHDer I could relate to a lot of this (blushes). "Liking a song, then needing to play it on repeat for a length of time that meets the definition of torture under international law" is brilliant 👏 Look forward to the meatier deep dive into the creativity/childlike link.
Thanks so much! It’s something I have noticed in becoming a parent and being mindful of possible ADHD traits, but also realising pretty much everything “ADHD” is really normal in a lot of little kids, especially active and curious boys.
Absolutely marta yes! I think this is the much-disputed "link" between ADHD and creativity, a glorious synthesis of impulsivity (not quickly censoring/repressing one's thoughts) and hugely intense feeling.
Yeah, I’ve noticed these childlike traits in myself and others with ADHD. I have a hard time not feeling a lot of shame about them. The only upside to me it seems is that we don’t lose that sense of wonder about the world that children have like most other adults do.
I’ve heard other adults say that they had children because they wanted to recapture the childlike joy of things like Christmas, or because their lives had become routine and boring… I’m still excited by many of the same things that excited me as a kid
I feel like saying it’s “the only upside” diminishes it a bit, because it’s a HUGE one. Do you know the lengths that adults will go to to recapture that childlike joy (and how badly their attempts usually go?)
Absolutely horse, it's wonderful to be so excited by life and people will chase that high at almost any cost ... hmm, maybe that's why we catch so much shade for having so much enthusiasm without having to pay anything for it (so to speak). Thought for a future post, perhaps.
I want to like this once for every example you gave that I found personally relatable.
🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷
🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷
🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷
Brilliant! 😂😃👌
It’s funny cause I’ve always said I wanted kids so I can be a kid with my children because I feel like that’s the only way I am allowed to be who I am (which is a toddler)
(which is probably also the reason why I maybe shouldn’t have kids because then I also need to be the parent)
In my experience, that part of it truly is lovely! You can spot other fellow neurodivergent parents at the playground pretty easy, they’re the ones going up and down the slides with the kids and clearly having a ball. But yes, someone does need to remember to bring spare clothes/wipes/snacks (to be honest that covers most eventualities!)
Thx for talking about this article in the We Zouden Het Toch Zo Doen-podcast. Really interesting. My compassion for and understanding my ADHD friends is growing. 💛
Omg, thank you. This is beyond fantastic. Also, though, as an ADHD’r, I have a family member, who def has ADHD, maybe even AuDHD, and this person makes me want to poke my own eyeballs out, and I get so overstimulated I can’t stand it, and them I am horribly rude to them and then I am “savagely” rude and/or rejecting to them, and help what can I do about this… I’d really like to not be rude or mean to them… and yet, If I say, please stop talking they cry. I’ve even walked away saying I need some quiet time and they follow me!!! And then they keeeeepppp talkkkkkinggggg. Eeeeeek what what what do I do! Also you forgot socks. How toddlers and us hate socks, they are horrible. And tags. And scratchy clothes.
Ha, how indeed did I forget socks and scratchy wool? PSA, people: please do not knit for babies, it is a truly beautiful gesture but ultimately terrible and wasteful for all concerned.
It's tough, right? To try and be kind, because you yourself struggle with the same things, but also to reach the end of your tolerance. I have a few thoughts ... could you have a chat with this family member when things are good/stable/calm, and frame it up as what YOU need, not what is WRONG with them. i.e. "You have so much enthusiasm and energy, and I can really hear how much you need to talk sometimes! The thing is, I care about you, but I also get overstimulated and sometimes I reach the limit of how much I can listen. Which doesn't mean you aren't important, just that I can't "people" any longer. Do you think maybe we can work out a system where I let you know that I'm reaching my limit, and then you can wrap up?"
If you can get their buy-in for what the system will be, it's much more likely to go well.
For example, if I am raving on a bit too much and my (very tolerant) husband has had enough, he will say "blueberries". I can hear this more readily than "please stop talking", even though it means the same thing, and it's a really good system because I know he's not listening to me drone through gritted teeth. He can also do it at parties when I am talking someone's face off about psychoanalysis, bonus!
Yes, having a conversation with them when Im not about to lose my top is smart. I sort of only just realized why I got so irritated with this person (that I became overstimulated) recently. I blamed how annoying they were for years. Then i watched another family member become overstimulated by them, and it clicked.
Yes and that comes back to ADHD and small children again, because wow can small people be overstimulating even though they are just learning and taking in the world and being super excited about it! We all have limits to how much overstimulation we can manage (and probably your family member's dysfunction is an attempt to discharge their own overstimulation).
All I can say is that I haven't seen any posts demonizing ADHD specifically - also, most of your examples might apply to someone with the hyperactive type but maybe not to someone primarily inattentive. Context & nuance is important 👌🏻
I am definitely often guilty of lacking nuance (though I hold the concept of nuance as very valuable, in theory). The vibe I notice is less demonising, more that much ADHD writing seems to boil down to "here's how to be more neurotypical" (like an ABA sort of approach) while much ASD writing is about how to unmask and accept difference. Thanks for your thoughts!
They made these characteristics into a whole personality type, ENFP, which I greatly prefer to think of myself as versus this 🫠
I mean, I can relate (INFP here) and I think that’s totally fair, only that having a small person of my own has made me more at peace with the idea (and less able to be in denial about it)!
do you find your child has the same traits? More peace is always good!
100%, ESPECIALLY the stubbornness. Keeps life interesting!
I’m just autistic, not AuDHD (as per both my neuropsych evaluation and the fact that a brief Ritalin prescription helped my narcolepsy but did nothing for my executive functioning) but honestly, same. I actually conceptualize my executive dysfunction as a toddler in a business suit doing a really bad job at being the CEO of my brain. (Chief Executive dysfunction Officer — get it?) The coping-strategies part of my brain is basically Alfred from Batman trying to wrangle the toddler into cooperation while wearing a matching business suit. Makes it a little bit funnier when I’m standing at the pantry going WHY are these all INGREDIENTS and not FOOD
I love the idea of an inner Alfred having to manage the chaos, complete with dignified ever-weary British accent ("could Sir perhaps be persuaded to consider the long-term consequences of 'giving in to the fuck-its' at this time?". And yes that's exactly the deal with the pantry, right? It's not "full" when the only thing in there is components...
It’s all very “Sir, leading medical authorities all agree that ‘a brick of uncooked ramen noodles with the flavor packet sprinkled on top’ is not an acceptable dinner. At least cook the damn thing first.” “But CRONCH >:(“ “Tomorrow we can go shopping and get ingredients for a ramen noodle salad. It’ll be crunchy and nutritious. Is this an acceptable compromise, Sir?” on repeat forever. I don’t think metaphorical Alfred gets paid enough. (I have eaten uncooked ramen more than once. It is not very good. ‘Ramen noodle salad’ is usually coleslaw veg mix with some green onions, sunflower seeds, and sliced almonds plus crushed uncooked ramen as basically weird croutons, dressed in a vinaigrette that has the ramen seasoning packets in it. It sounds weird but it tastes good and also is very cheap.)
I work at a preschool and I get along with the kids pretty well partially because they’re relatable so this really put into words each of the reasons why. Other kid-like traits that I think are adhd coded is “not quite finishing a task because it had more than two steps and I forgot” like when I throw away some trash and realize the trash is full so I toss the bag in the bin but forget to throw away what I was originally tossing away. Or the “I was in the middle of doing something but I started staring into the distance and needed to be reminded to do my work”. Or the “NO I DONT WANNA CLEAN UP”
Ha, absolutely! I don't think I have ever once managed to complete the full-trash-bin-sequence in a single go (I reliably get stuck at the bit where I forget to put in a new bag, and then whatever I throw in the bin next ends up in the gross bagless bottom of the bin).
Those 30 tendencies resonate me so much, I wanted to seek professional to understand if I really do have an ADHD or not
Best of luck Berliana, and thanks so much for sharing that. I went for my own assessment from a similar place of uncertainty ... I think at a certain point it's worth it just to know for sure.
Hahaha this made me laugh and I agree I am an absolute child and it makes life hard because children don't have to work and pay bills, but I do???? Completely unfair (and unrealistic.)
Ha, right? If anything it makes it easier to understand why certain parts of adult worklife are such a challenge ... you wouldn't expect a kid to be able to manage it but we can't always easily access higher adult functioning.
I hadn’t thought of it this way, but I’ve noticed the split too, and I think you’re onto something.
Thank you, I appreciate that. A lot of it I've only noticed since having my kid and I'm sure there's more I'm missing.
I totally agree with you on society’s dislike of small children, and I do feel as though my ADHD traits make me feel - and seem - childlike (or childish, depending on who’s judging).
However, growing up AuDHD, I’ve always felt that autism was more infantilized. I grew up with the “ADHD makes you a great entrepreneur or entertainer!” narrative, but Temple Grandin and Bill Gates were the only autistic people with jobs. Eventually they figured out it was an asset in tech, so that became the One Autistic Job Option.
I also find the autism articles more infantalizing in a way - it’s all about finding your people who wear cat ears and bright colours and being proud to fiddle with tangles and cuddle squishmallows in public.. whereas the ADHD stuff is more “stop fucking up your life so you can succeed in your career”
Love that you picked up the difference between childlike and childish! Also thank you for sharing that re autism spaces, I'm only noticing what I am recommended here on Substack but I can completely appreciate what you're saying. It's so tricky to hold tension and nuance between self-acceptance and moving towards improvement.
I feel a bit the same in the ADHD-is-a-superpower spaces. Like, maybe? I like that ADHD helps me have creative non-censored thoughts, but is there also space to acknowledge the grief of years and years of fuckery, the reality that I will never be what I might have been because of my brain?
It’s fascinating to me (an adult who had zero inkling I might have ADHD tendencies until well into my thirties) to go, more or less, from how ADD was treated in school (“has trouble sitting still and paying attention”) to how we now talk about it as adults.
So glad I stumbled upon this piece—thank you, randomness of Notes!—and I appreciate your writing about these perceptions.
Thanks so much Zach, that's very kind. I'm so glad you have found something useful in my writing. It's wild isn't it, the huge shift in perception from "trouble sitting still" disorder through to this way of experiencing and being and thinking that captures all us chaotic internalisers.
I had zero inkling myself for many years despite going through therapist training!
Even as an AuDHDer I could relate to a lot of this (blushes). "Liking a song, then needing to play it on repeat for a length of time that meets the definition of torture under international law" is brilliant 👏 Look forward to the meatier deep dive into the creativity/childlike link.
Thank you! See this is the con of figuring out how to work your brain, now that I've publicly promised a piece I actually have to do it, ha.
Love that you wrote this!! I’m intrigued and will be thinking about this more!!
Thanks so much! It’s something I have noticed in becoming a parent and being mindful of possible ADHD traits, but also realising pretty much everything “ADHD” is really normal in a lot of little kids, especially active and curious boys.
On the bright side i think we are able to experience childlike happiness when we become deeply engaged in something we love :)
Absolutely marta yes! I think this is the much-disputed "link" between ADHD and creativity, a glorious synthesis of impulsivity (not quickly censoring/repressing one's thoughts) and hugely intense feeling.